This script has been lightly edited for clarity.
Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.
When we last saw Eliza Scarlet, her heart had been shattered: William Wellington, her beloved Duke, was off to New York, and her confidante and former employer Patrick Nash was behind bars. Unencumbered by relationships both personal and professional, Eliza struck out on her own and finally hung her own shingle above her old second-floor office. The sign, freshly painted, now reads, “Miss Eliza Scarlet. Private Detective.”
By the start of Season Five, it would appear as if Eliza’s struggling business is staying afloat as she maintains her tenuous relationship with Scotland Yard, despite the Duke’s absence. Detective Phelps, who has temporarily taken over for Wellington, comes begging Eliza and her secretary Clarence for their help with a case. Or so Eliza claims.
CLIP
Phelps: This is yours if you want it.
Miss Scarlet: You wish to hire us?
Phelps: If you ask me, it’s a wild goose chase. Total waste of time. But it’s one more thing to get off my desk.
Eliza’s good fortune soon evaporates as the prickly and fastidious Inspector Alexander Blake arrives at Scotland Yard as Wellington’s formal replacement and makes it “abundantly clear” that he does not need the help of private detectives. Hoping to win him over somehow, Eliza pays her old friend Nash a visit in prison to get some more intel on Inspector Blake.
CLIP
Nash: Not too much is known about him, but he has an excellent reputation. Hard working, honest, all the worst things a man can be. He’s ex-army, officer. Served all around the empire. Oh, and there’s something else, something you will not like.
Miss Scarlet: Go on.
Nash: He doesn’t use private detectives. He halved the crime rate in Bristol just by using his own men. Saved the city fortunes. You can see why the commissioner likes him. Still, if anyone can change his mind…
As you might expect, that’s exactly what Eliza sets out to do.
CLIP
Miss Scarlet: I’m sure it would take anyone time to understand the unique challenges that this city presents, so while you’re finding your feet, why not turn to those who have been working here for some time?
Blake: That is a fair point, and I will take it under consideration. Should I change my mind, I will contact you immediately.
Miss Scarlet: Are you just saying that so I’ll leave?
Blake: Yes.
Writer and creator Rachael New returns to the podcast to discuss this new era of Miss Scarlet and how all of these momentous narrative shifts might play out over the course of the season.
Jace Lacob: This week, we are joined by Miss Scarlet creator and executive producer, Rachael New. Welcome.
Rachael New: Hello, Jace. It’s lovely to be back.
Jace Lacob: It’s lovely to have you back. We ended Series Four with the departure of William Wellington and Eliza seeing the new sign painted above her shop, “Miss Eliza Scarlet Private Detective”. She has her own shingle, but when we pick back up with Eliza in Series Five, things aren’t going swimmingly. How did you see that final image being the springboard for this new season?
Rachael New: Well, it’s funny, because that final image of her name above the door in my head was always going to be the very last episode. To me, that was her end point. But then it just felt like, do you know what, it could equally be the beginning of a completely new adventure. So, it just felt really fitting. And when you come to the end of a season, you have a rough idea of where you want your protagonists to go, but it often massively changes.
So, ending Season Four on that actually opened up lots of different doors and lots of different options. When you’re actually story lining, you can have a really set idea and then you just have to rip the whole thing up and start again. So, it’s always really good to not be too committed to one direction and to have a rough idea but be open to wherever the creative takes you.
Jace Lacob: As you said, it opens up so many new story possibilities and takes her to so many different places. And I feel very fortunate that we as the audience get to actually see those stories. So, I’m glad you stuck it in here.
So, if series four was to quote your husband Ben from our end of series four conversation, “The be careful what you wish for a season.” How would you broadly describe Eliza’s arc then in series five? Is it about picking up the pieces in the face of loss, about finding your own way when your support system vanishes, or something else entirely?
Rachael New: It’s a bit of all those things. My feeling is that it’s about new beginnings for her, but she’s more vulnerable in this season, I think. She’s been a bit broken. We’ve seen her lose essentially, the love of her life. And then this amazing job opportunity came up and that kind of didn’t work out, which wasn’t her fault, in Season Four.
So, she’s really picked herself up, picked up the pieces of her life and is as determined as ever. But she’s almost sort of more streetwise now. She knows that life is tricky, it’s not perfect. And I think now she’s gone through running the Nash company and that didn’t work out, I think she’s just pleased to be back in her office in her world and just wants to keep her head above water. I think the time of taking over the world, for want of a better term, she’s sort of outgrown that a little bit.
Now she just wants to have some substance in her life. She’s trying to find her way in this new territory, especially now there’s a new detective inspector that she’s got to figure out and work out how to try and work with him. So, in some ways it’s quite good for her because this is slightly the Wild West for her now. She doesn’t have that support network at Scotland Yard. And she’s now really trying to figure out who she is and what she wants, where she wants to be. We definitely see a more mature Eliza in this season.
Jace Lacob: You mentioned Nash’s agency. It was ultimately a bit of a monkey’s paw. There was a curse attached to it and Eliza has really had to find her own way in the aftermath. But having said that, Eliza and Patrick’s friendship has been one of the most surprising and lovely elements of Miss Scarlet and this season they’re tested further. How would you describe their prison tête-à-têtes?
Rachael New: Oh, they’re just beautiful. I’ve probably said this to you so many times, Jace, about different aspects of this show, but those scenes are some of my favorite scenes. I love writing Nash anyway, he’s so funny. And he’s such a great antihero, I think. And just seeing him, it’s really nice that it’s not a romantic relationship, it’s a platonic friendship. They both care deeply for each other. And I love the idea that beyond anyone else, he knows he can rely on her and he really appreciates her as a friend. And she’s, come to rely on him as well, because she knows that he has got her back.
So, it’s just a very warm, but funny, fun dynamic between them. And it’s just so enjoyable. Sometimes when you’re writing scripts, obviously, you’re sort of rocking along with the story, but then you come to the bit, you have your outline and then it will suddenly say, “Eliza goes to visit Nash.” And I’m like, ooh, I’m going to save that for this afternoon. It’s like a real treat to write some of these.
I get that also with Mr. Potts and Mrs. Parker as well. It’s just that some of those characters are so, they’re not easy to write, but they are just so fun. It really flows. I’m sure Ben feels the same, but yeah, I just adore Nash. He’s one of my favorite characters. And I think he brings out a very different side of Eliza that I really enjoy seeing.
Jace Lacob: Those scenes, they have a tenderness but also a playfulness that I love. And I love the fact that he can read Eliza despite her steely exterior.
CLIP
Nash: He asked you to join him in New York, didn’t he, your inspector? But if you’d gone, it would have been as his wife. A superintendent can’t have a wife who’s a private detective. You’d have been forced to give up everything you’ve worked so hard for.
Eliza: If you know so much, why are you in prison?
Nash: It’s a question I ask myself every day.
Jace Lacob: What does it mean to her to have her feelings acknowledged here?
Rachael New: Well, Nash is extremely, you know, he’s a bit of a charmer, a bit of a player, but he’s very intuitive. I think that’s why people love him so much. And that’s why he’s such a great friend with Eliza, she’s very intuitive too. And it serves a couple of purposes. One to say their friendship is deep enough for him to be able to read her and to know what’s going on no matter how much bravado she’s got.
But also, it’s a more elegant way of getting a little exposition out there as well, just to say, look, this is the internal working. And we’re not in a novel. We can’t get too much into what Eliza’s thoughts are sometimes. So, it is nice to have it spoken aloud by somebody who knows her well.
We all have people like that in our lives where we’re trying to be cheerful and, oh, everything’s fine, whatever. And then somebody, a family member or a friend will say, it’s not though, is it? So, I just think it’s a very natural, nice way to have a little glimpse into what is going on with Eliza and essentially her broken heart. She is broken-hearted.
Jace Lacob: And then enter Detective Inspector Alexander Blake, who, according to Nash, is, “Hardworking, honest, all the worst things a man can be.” When you were initially conceiving the character of Blake, what sort of attributes were you looking for? How would he be a foil for Eliza without duplicating the Duke?
Rachael New: The main thing when Ben and I were trying to work out who he was, what came very quickly was obviously we wanted him to be different to Duke, but it was more than that. You know, the years have ticked on a bit. We wanted the audience to get a sense that even though obviously, these would not be hugely progressive men, we are in a later year, we’re in, like, 1885 now and I loved the idea that this man that’s come in, it’s not so much about her, which is a bit like Nash, it’s not about her being a female private detective. He couldn’t care less about that. It’s just about her being a private detective. He just can’t stand them. He doesn’t trust them. He doesn’t use them. And I just thought that was a really nice fresh take.
It’s not really about her being a woman. And with Duke, it was always slightly that. Obviously, they were childhood friends and they had a history and he had deep feelings for her, but there was always that sort of protection, and it was about her being a woman and he was very traditional as a man, Duke. He wanted to get married and have children like most men would want at that time, whereas Blake is different.
He’s already got his child, his family, we find out at the end of the episode that he’s got a daughter. So, he’s a very different, I’m going to use the word beast, but not in any derogatory way, he’s a very different force for her. And she’s got to really try and figure him out and figure out the best way to manage him. Because that’s what Eliza does best. She works out how to manage someone, even if it’s like Mr. Potts or Mrs. Parker, that’s her key. She sort of maps out how to navigate the person in front of her.
Jace Lacob: So, by the end of the episode, we learn he is a former soldier. He’s a DI transferred to Scotland Yard from Bristol. He speaks Mandarin. And as you say, he’s a single father with a young daughter. He is very ably played by Tom Durant-Pritchard. What did Tom bring to the role and what made him the ideal Blake?
Rachael New: Soon as I saw Tom, he just embodied Blake for me. As a person, he’s extremely warm, he’s funny, he’s so honest and open. He is such a breath of fresh air, and he was just lovely to work with. So, he fitted in straight away, him and, I call them the Scarlet boys, it’s like him and Simon, Mr. Potts, and Tim, Phelps, Evan, who plays Fitzroy, and obviously Felix. They’re just a really nice set of men who are very chatty and fun. And, yeah, Tom just fitted in so well. And Tom and Kate got on like a house on fire too, which was really wonderful. So, I think hopefully you’ll agree, you can see their chemistry on screen, it’s different to her and Duke, but it’s powerful, you can feel it between them.
Jace Lacob: Despite the series now being called Miss Scarlet, we don’t begin Series 5 with Eliza Scarlet, but rather with Fitzroy and Phelps awaiting the arrival of D. I. Blake as they size up their new gov. And before we catch up with Eliza, before we learn anything about Blake, you have Eliza and Blake come face to face at a crime scene. Where did the idea for this very early confrontation come from?
Rachael New: Well, Ben and I felt very strongly, again, there were certain things about Blake we wanted to hit quite early on, one of which was that he would be a single father, he’s an army man, he’s quite structured. But the other thing about him and Eliza was we wanted to do something different. I think we didn’t really want to go down the route of the first time on screen you see them together, we thought it was a really fun way in, which is, they already knew each other. Because again, that sort of makes you go, oh, okay, that’s interesting. Well, who is he? And it’s just a more interesting way in. And then through the flashbacks, we see how they met.
So, you could do it in more of a shorthand way. And it’s a way to do something a bit more entertaining to develop their relationship, but to not have to get too bogged down into this is the first time they meet and then this happens and that happens. The flashback was always going to be quite a nice, elegant way to have a few shortcuts and to keep the energy up because, you know, it’s a first episode of a new season. And when you’re introducing such a big new cast member, you have to be careful that that doesn’t completely dominate the episode, because obviously it’s Miss Scarlet, you know. So, that was our way in to solve that problem, if that makes sense.
Jace Lacob: What I love about it is it also helps to immediately establish Eliza and Blake as potential adversaries. She’s at a crime scene in a secret room with a dead body. She is sort of “Trouble” with a capital “T” from the jump. What follows is delicious competitive banter between the two of them as they both try to outdo the other with their observational skills, each circling the other in this very brainy dance of wits.
CLIP
Blake: We’ve known each other for less than two weeks and in that brief period of time I have made it abundantly clear that I do not need your help.
Miss Scarlet: Really? So, you noticed that the victim’s body is in the second stage of rigor mortis suggesting—
Blake: A time of death between 2 o’clock and 6 ‘clock this morning. Yes, I noticed.
Miss Scarlet: And the lack of defense wounds on his arms?
Blake: Suggest a sudden attack rather than a prolonged struggle. This I already know. What I don’t know is how you ended up in a locked room with a dead man.
Jace Lacob: How would you describe their dynamic in this scene?
Rachael New: I do feel there is the chemistry between them as performers. So, they’re sort of making the writer’s life and the director’s life much easier. But it is also a combination of, we’ve got a brilliant director in Ivan. We’ve got a wonderful DP, in Milos Kodemo. So, there’s a lot of very clever people circling these two extremely crafty, talented performers. But yes, I suppose because Blake’s more, I don’t know, I don’t want to say gentlemanly, but there’s something a bit more repressed about Blake. He’s not at all overt with how he is with her. He’s chilly and a bit cold, but also you get the sense from Tom’s performance that he’s intrigued by her.
MIDROLL
Jace Lacob: I want to talk about the role of comedy within the show, particularly in this episode. Eliza recounts the events leading up to the murder and paints her business as thriving, her professional relationship with Phelps as blossoming, and Clarence as the very spirit of legality. Blake calls her out as a liar.
CLIP
Blake: Stop right there.
Miss Scarlet: What?
Blake: I’m quite sure detective Phelps has never been that polite to anyone. Not even his own mother. And as for your esteemed colleague Mr. Clarence Pettigrew, he’s a convicted felon who has served 18 months for fraud.
Miss Scarlet: I believe everyone deserves a second chance.
Blake: As do I. So please, begin again. And this time, with the actual truth. Not some version of it designed to paint you in a favorable light.
Miss Scarlet: I resent the accusation.
Blake: Mm.
Jace Lacob: And then Eliza has to re-spin her yarn with honesty. And I loved the unexpected humor of this moment. How do you approach injecting moments of humor like that into Miss Scarlet?
Rachael New: Well, that was a really fun idea. Ben and I were talking about it, and it was very much like, let’s have almost like a fairy tale moment. Because we were dead set quite early on on doing this episode as a flashback. And then once our director looked at it, his thing was, yeah, this feels very fairytale-like. So, we had to play with VFX and goodness knows what, but to travel up the building to Clarence opening the window on this lovely sunny day and the music’s lovely and everything’s happy and Phelps comes in and he’s all jolly, and you’re like, this doesn’t feel very like reality.
But Ben and I are both comedy writers, our background is in comedy. So, it’s something we do try and inject where possible. There’s a really beautiful moment with our wonderful Clarence and he’s trying to comfort Eliza because he knows that Duke has left.
CLIP
Clarence: I heard the news about Inspector Wellington and um, I thought that today of all days was not the time for you to be in the office alone.
Miss Scarlet: Ivy’s spoken to you. Clarence, I’m perfectly—
Clarence: Yes, yes, yes. You will say that you are fine, but we both know that that is not true. And so, I’ve given this a great deal of thought, and it is my belief that at this moment in time, company may be of some degree of comfort to you. Quiet, or even silent company since I’m a man who is at a loss to know what to say when it comes to matters of the heart.
Rachael New: It’s kind of heartbreaking, very heartwarming to watch him do his speech, but it’s also very Clarence and very clumsy, very officious the way he delivers it. So personally, I think when you put a bit of comedy, even in moments of pathos and even in just sad moments, there’s something very poignant about that. I think it really helps sink it in even deeper, if that makes sense.
Jace Lacob: It does. You mentioned Clarence. Eliza describes Clarence as her esteemed colleague, “A chartered accountant with an unrivaled knowledge of civil and criminal law.” And he cares for her. He even comes in to see how she is after learning about Wellington, as you said. And can I say just how much I love Paul Bazely as Clarence? Are you surprised by how viewers have reacted to Clarence?
Rachael New: Oh, he’s just fantastic, isn’t he? He’s just invigorating to watch. I mean, Paul needs very little direction. He just gets it. He’s got such brilliant comedy chops. So, when he’s doing his thing, we’re all in video village laughing and giggling. And he’ll always say, is that too much? Is that too much? Do you want me to sit on it a little bit? So yeah, it’s inspired, I think, his portrayal of Clarence, and so warm and funny, that I think the audience have just fallen in love with him, I really do. I think everybody would like a Clarence in their life.
Jace Lacob: Oh God, yeah. I mean, his comment about the opium den being “earthy” and trying to bribe the doorman, that had me in stitches. And I think Paul just does such a great job of imbuing Clarence with gravitas, but also so much humor, as you say. And I love unlikely pairings and Eliza and Clarence undercover together at a masked auction in an opium den ticks that box so magnificently. Where did the idea for this caper and this particular pairing come from?
Rachael New: Well, we definitely wanted Clarence to be more in the field, out of the office. What we love as well is the idea that he’s building on his knowledge from Nash. So obviously, he was Nash’s right-hand man. And so now he’s in his element when he’s saying to Eliza, well, I know how I might be able to help with this because I know who the sources were that Nash used. Which is why it’s so funny as you say that he’s the one that takes her to the auction, but he can’t get them into the auction, and it takes Eliza to be a bit more savvy and hand over a bribe of money. But yeah, really it just comes down to when you have such great performers like Paul, you just want to use them as much as possible where you can. And that’s definitely what we did.
Jace Lacob: And it’s great. I wondered whether we’d get an overt mention to William’s fate here, particularly in the first episode back after Stuart Martin’s departure. What sort of mental calculus did you have to do about discussing whether Wellington might be back?
Rachael New: Again, like I said earlier, it was one of those things where, especially with the first episode of a new season, you don’t want everything to be dominated by the news that he’s not coming back, which it would’ve been so easy to do that. Nobody wants to see Eliza heartbroken and miserable for an entire episode, which is why, again, when we were structuring this episode, Ben and I were pretty certain that the flashback structure was probably the way to go because you want to see that she’s heartbroken. You want to see that emotion. Often, she can be a bit buttoned down sometimes and it’s not often you see her in the raw so much. And it’s a beautiful scene of her and Ivy, and Ivy comforting her.
CLIP
Ivy: I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better.
Eliza: (sniffles) There’s nothing to say. He’s not coming back.
Ivy: Do you remember what your father used to say? Only hopeless people cry. And you’re not without hope, Lizzie. You’ve a whole future ahead of you.
Rachael New: So, we never wanted to shy away from that, but equally Miss Scarlet is a fun romp as well. We wanted to keep the adventure. We wanted to introduce Blake. We wanted to have the fun, like you say, of her and Clarence working together. So, it was about being measured. It was about hitting all those moments, those really crucial important moments, but doing it in a measured way that it wouldn’t completely dominate and derail.
Jace Lacob: Blake and Eliza settle into a nice pas de deux over the course of this episode. He reads her quite easily. She uses the pockets of her dress as a psychological crutch, she has a tell before she lies. And she then turns the tables on him and dissects him. And it’s all fun and games until she picks up that copy of Treasure Island. What does she make of his sudden coldness here?
Rachael New: Well, she’s just very confused by it. It’s a kind of corrective reminder that she doesn’t really know him. He’s an unknown quantity to her at the moment. So, in some ways it’s a bit of a reality slap for her to think, oh, okay, this is a very different man. And that was a really nice scene to write, but it was a reminder that these two are strangers, that she’s got a long way to go before she can be that familiar with somebody. Because she doesn’t know anything about him, really. Not really, at this point.
Jace Lacob: Eliza goes home to discover that Ivy is out with Barnabas, and Blake goes home to a house that isn’t empty, but contains his daughter, Sophia and that copy of Treasure Island. Why did you decide to make Blake a father, particularly to a young daughter? Is there perhaps some thematic overlap with Eliza and her own father?
Rachael New: I would love to say no, and that wasn’t the reason at the beginning. But that then came up, sort of hit me in the face and I was like, yeah. So probably on some level, that probably was, that it mirrored somehow Eliza and Henry, although I didn’t want that to be too overt.
But there’s something very beautiful about the relationship between a father and his daughter, especially a little girl, that they bring out, you know, you’ve got this big tough guy working in London, seeing the grimness of humanity. And then he goes back to his little girl who he wants to obviously protect, but he also sees a different side. I just think there’s something really tender about that relationship. So it was always in our mind that his child would be a daughter. But then as you say, it really does mirror Eliza and Henry nicely as well.
Jace Lacob: The episode ends with Eliza visiting Nash in prison again, drinking in the prison governor’s office.
CLIP
Nash: I see more of you now than I did when I was a free man. Surely you have better places to be.
Miss Scarlet: Sadly not.
Jace Lacob: I love this scene between the two of them so much as she tries to predict the advice Patrick will give her.
CLIP
Miss Scarlet: I know what you’re going to say.
Nash: You do?
Miss Scarlet: There are plenty of married people with families who are also lonely.
Nash: I wasn’t going to say that, but it is a valid point.
Miss Scarlet: The journey to success will always be more fulfilling than reaching the destination.
Nash: I wasn’t going to say that either, but I really wish I had.
Miss Scarlet: I probably shouldn’t think about it too much because no one is satisfied all the time.
Nash: I really do need to start writing this down.
Jace Lacob: Has Nash become Eliza’s ideal sounding board, her ideal companion at this point?
Rachael New: In some ways, yes, because as I said, he’s very intuitive. I think she’s probably looking at his life thinking I’m probably going to end up like him. I don’t think that’s something that she really wants. I suppose she wants it all. She wants that balance in her life and doesn’t quite know how to get it. Nash is such a survivor. He is living this life, he’s probably never lonely. He just accepts that he loves that freedom. And yeah, I think that he, on the one hand, understands her, on the other hand, thinks, well, she’s taking it all too seriously. So, he brings a lightness to her as well.
In terms of friendship, I think he is an absolute ideal sounding board for her. They bring different things out in each other. She brings out his sensitivity, his authentic-ness, which he doesn’t usually like to show. And he brings out the truth in her in many ways as well. What’s really nice about them is they can’t really hoodwink each other. They both understand each other very well. And I think at that moment, and it’s a very poignant moment, the end of Episode One, that’s what she needs. She needs to sit down and be really truthful with somebody, to the point where maybe he’s the only person that she could be that truthful with.
Jace Lacob: Nicely put. Rachael New, thank you so very much.
Rachael New: Thank you, Jace. It’s an absolute pleasure.
Next time, we travel back to the Yorkshire Dales as Helen informs her family of James’ return from the war.
CLIP
Richard: Jenny, James is back!
Jenny: How long for?
Helen: For good.
Jenny: Is he alright? Nothing’s happened?
Helen: Just the fever I were telling you about. But he’s well now. They ended up discharging him.
Next week, actor Imogen Clawson joins the podcast and makes her MASTERPIECE Studio debut as we discuss how her character, Jenny Alderson, adjusts to life without Helen on the farm, and considers her options for the future.